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The 'Pause
The menopause podcast with unfiltered conversations about the symptoms you hate, the changes you didn’t see coming, and the hilarious moments midlife can bring. You've got questions and we've got the experts to answer them.
The 'Pause
What if your workplace actually understood menopause? How office design company MillerKnoll is revolutioninzing workpaces for women
Val Lego speaks with Ryan Anderson and Rebecca Horton from Miller Knoll about their pioneering work to create workplace environments that better support women experiencing perimenopause and menopause. They discuss how thoughtful office design can address symptoms like hot flashes, brain fog, joint pain, and fatigue that affect women's careers.
• 51% of the workforce are women who may experience menopause symptoms in the workplace
• Miller Knoll began researching workplace menopause solutions after learning about UK initiatives addressing the issue
• Respite spaces provide essential areas for women to recover from symptoms without "having to cry in the bathroom."
• Research shows joint pain is as common as hot flashes during menopause but less recognized
• Design solutions include movement-friendly workspaces, sit-stand options, and respite areas for short naps
• Natural light, biophilic design elements, and temperature control help manage multiple menopause symptoms
• Thoughtful workplace design benefits not only menopausal women but also veterans with PTSD and neurodivergent individuals
• Creating inclusive workplaces means designing spaces where everyone can bring their best selves to work
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Welcome to The 'Pause, the menopause podcast, with unfiltered conversations about the symptoms you hate, the changes you didn't see coming, and the hilarious moments midlife can bring. I'm your host, Val Lego, and I've been a dedicated health reporter for 25 years, and I wanted to normalize something that every woman goes through menopause. So together we're going to talk about it: the Peri, the Menno, and the Post. Welcome to the Pause. The workforce is made up of 51% of women. 51% of us are in an office that's making us sweat, in an office that is maybe not conducive to a lot of things that are happening in the changes in our lives that are going through. Between 37, as I like to say, 37 is the new 50, because perimenopause can start at 37, well into our 50s and our 60s, and women are very protective during this time. We are building our careers, we're raising children, we are really owning it, and we're going through perimenopause and menopause at the same time, and sometimes those workplaces just don't work for us.
Val Lego:How many times were you at work and said, man, wouldn't it be great if they had, like, a napping room? I mean, I don't need a four-hour nap, but even a 30-minute nap, and I'd feel way better and I'd be able to just get into that project and get her done. I've got some really great news for you because there is some work being done in this space that might change that for you and make workplaces a lot better. So I've got some really exciting guests to talk to on the podcast today Ryan Anderson, vp of Global Research and Planning at Miller Knoll. Rebecca Horton, senior Insight Strategist at Miller Knoll, both making big strides in making workplaces better for women. Thank you both for joining us.
Ryan Anderson:Thanks for having us this morning.
Rebecca Horton:Yeah, thank you, looking forward to this.
Val Lego:Yeah, it's going to be a great conversation. I'm really excited to know that you're doing this work for women in the workplace. Miller Noll, obviously known for design innovation, parent company of Herman Miller, which is what probably most people in West Michigan know but not necessarily really known for, like health policies and building workplaces around health policy. So what inspired the company to want to go down this road?
Rebecca Horton:Yeah well, we view this as a really important design challenge and we've got a long history within Herman Miller and our other brands of trying to create workplaces that are healthier and more enjoyable. But the background on this particular body of work goes back a couple years. I had the chance to be interviewed by a reporter from Bloomberg named Lizzie Burden, who we were talking about return to office stuff, but after the interview she said hey, are you paying any attention to all the work on menopause in the UK? And I think this was 2022 or 2023. And I didn't know what she was talking about, but she subsequently wrote a piece on it that covered how the Ministry of Labor in the UK was looking at the effects of menopause on women and on the workforce, and they had grown concerned that a significant number of people were leaving the workforce because they weren't really able to talk about the challenges of menopause and employers didn't really get it their country as well as their individual employers and so we began to take an interest in whether or not physical spaces could play some sort of role in trying to help people to have a more enjoyable work experience.
Rebecca Horton:In this case, specifically looking at paramenopause, menopause, postmenopause we found out that somebody in our network, a woman by the name of Kate Usher, was really well known in the UK as a leading menopause consultant. So we began working with her and then we kind of took the challenge amongst ourselves. You know we're the research and planning team, so it's our job to try to uncover insight we can use to plan better spaces. So what we've been doing for the last couple of years is exploring what kind of changes to the physical environment could we employ to help ease some of the challenges.
Val Lego:What were some of those things that you thought of? Because you know I still have to think about furniture. Are you making the furniture more comfortable or are you really delving into those work, the actual work spaces, you know, the offices, the hallways, the lunch rooms, all of those things?
Rebecca Horton:Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, we make furniture, we make textiles and work tools and other things. But because we work with a lot of large organizations and not just companies that do offices, but places of higher education, clinical health care facilities we often get a chance to advise on the overall design of the whole space. And so in this case I have to admit I mean I was super ignorant about the topic. I didn't know much beyond the stereotypes of hot flashes et cetera. So as we started to understand the broader scope of challenges, that a, a great deal of expertise in understanding how all of these sensory inputs light, sound, temperature, et cetera affect how we think and how we work, and so we saw a lot of intersections basically between what we were learning about menopause and some of the advice that we could provide to our customers.
Val Lego:Do you have any specifics that you're dialing in on?
Rebecca Horton:Yeah, there's quite a few actually. I mean, one area that I think jumped out to us is just the opportunity for respite and restoration in the space, and this is not unique to women experiencing menopause. We found that the workplace can be stressful. I think a lot of people view it as a source of stress rather than a place to maybe take a little break from some of the stresses of the workday, and so for years we've been looking at how little areas that you can kind of go into and have a moment of restoration or respite can help people. Maybe with anxiety disorder, could be a veteran with PTSD, could be a person of color who's dealing with code switching, like there's a lot of reasons why a person might need to step back.
Rebecca Horton:What we started to look at is if an employer puts respite or restoration spaces into their office, which isn't uncommon what could we begin to do with that space?
Rebecca Horton:That specifically was there to help women experiencing menopause, and so some of it did relate to temperature and airflow et cetera. But there's moments of brain fog and other challenges that you just need a place where you feel like you can really be sheltered from the stresses of the workday. We do a lot of different research in a lot of different types of spaces. In fact, we just finished this big study on nurse burnout in clinical environments. And how on earth could the physical space begin to help? Health systems like Corwell and others retain nurses Some very similar properties right to what does it look like to having a really stressful day and being able to take a moment or longer as kind of an approved part of the workday, not feeling like you have to escape on your own and just like hide in the back alley to gather yourself? One of our team members, joseph White, once remarked to me he's like people shouldn't have to cry in the bathroom.
Val Lego:Right, but it happens a lot. It does so often.
Rebecca Horton:So respite spaces are one way of addressing a lot of these issues.
Val Lego:Yeah, I think that that would be amazing. I think that that would be amazing. I think there's a lot of women who are listening right now, who are mapping out what that napping room looks like and what kind of pillows they need and all of the different things the aromatherapy just to get through it, because it is a really big, really big deal when you're at work and you're experiencing any host of perimenopause and menopause symptoms. But I don't want to forget about Rebecca, because she's here listening intently. Hi, rebecca, hi, so you've worked directly with clients to help them rethink how their workplace policies and environments can better support women in midlife. And, as you're having these conversations, what is it that you're seeing?
Ryan Anderson:Well, we're seeing that this is such a good time to have this conversation. It's part of that bigger return to office discussion. So when we meet with clients, it's unfortunately, you know, we're getting the same, or fortunately the same, questions. You know why is there resistance coming back? What you know? What carrot can we use as opposed to the stick? You know, help us please. So it's the perfect time to introduce this as part of the conversation and, as Ryan mentioned, that, you know it's the perfect time to introduce this as part of the conversation. And, as Ryan mentioned, the stress, anxiety, those things have come into play. The US Surgeon General, for the first time ever, issued a report saying that there's this epidemic of isolation and so, solving for these problems, the menopause just folds into this. That, and then, of course, menopause just folds into this that. And then, of course, there's been a ton of media attention. I don't know if you caught the special. Probably you did, given your work with Oprah and how it jumped on the product bandwagon Right.
Ryan Anderson:There's just a lot of really interesting enthusiastic activists. And then you have Dr Mary Claire Haver out of Texas, out of Houston, texas I'm from Texas, so she's really big in Texas as well Just pushing that conversation forward and normalizing that. So it's a perfect time to introduce it. We actually got to soft launch, discussing workplace menopause, how to support it, in Toronto at the International Women's Day event with our partner, our dealer partner, coi. So that was fun. We didn't really quite know what to expect and thought, well, we're going to gauge the market based on attendance and participation. And we were blown away. We were absolutely blown away by both attendance and the participation of both men and women.
Rebecca Horton:Yeah, I'll just add. We've also done a few fairly broad-reaching webinars where we had several hundred people from around the world and, as I said, I was somewhat naive on this whole topic. What really struck me when I joined the first one was how many women in the comment section were saying I didn't know. This is what was happening to me, like just the steady stream of like self-discovery and the feeling, to some extent, of relief, like okay, I get it now. The other thing that really surprised me was just how supportive many of the men that had joined these calls were as well, with a sincere desire like help me understand this, and maybe, just because of their personal lives, they've encountered some element of this. But there was quite a bit of enthusiasm around. Let's all figure out what we can do to make menopause and perimenopause and postmenopause a little less challenging for everyone, and if the physical environments can play a role, let's try to push on that and try a few things and see if we can move this forward.
Val Lego:Yeah, and I love the fact that the conversation around perimenopause and menopause is starting to become a little bit more normalized. I mean, some people still go. I don't want to go there, but in the bigger spaces people are like we're going to have to talk about this, let's get comfortable. And I really love the fact that you've had so many conversations with women and men, because it's allowed you to really explore what that space looks like. So what are some of those design concepts, rebecca, that are supporting women that came out of some of these conversations?
Ryan Anderson:I'm so glad you asked that and you know we're big advocates of not about us without us. So I work in a cohort with other women and I happen to be a postmenopausal woman, so I can say, hey, there's light at the end of the tunnel.
Val Lego:Yes, there is, and you know what. You're super engaging, you're smart, you're funny and you're still have a kick-ass career.
Ryan Anderson:So there you go there, you go, there's, there is hope, Um, and we've got um designers who are perimenopause in all phases of this, so we're able to bring our authentic selves to this conversation. And then we're researchers. You know, Ryan is the leader of research, of global research, for all of Miller and Noll we are going to, you know, come with receipts. So we did start with our own research. And what's interesting is, you know, from you know, this huge meta-analysis that came out of about a half a million women globally, pinned down what are we solving for? And so to be able to just say, okay, it's not just a myth, it's not only hot flashes, it is truly. There are a myriad of other symptoms that we need to address. And then, which symptoms do we want to address?
Ryan Anderson:And we settled on okay, we need to set, we need to focus on the physical issues that women are dealing with in the workplace, the psychological issues they're dealing with in the workplace associated with menopause. Are we going to tackle the sexual part? No, I think we're not going to. We're going to leave that at home. They're not going to solve for everything. We kind of joked, we're like you know, erectile dysfunction, that can stay at home. We're not solving for that. You know the aspects of menopause that are, you know, south of the border. We are not solving for that. We're going to talk about the things that women experience that cause them to quit their jobs, that impact their jobs, that make them second guess why they're in the workplace, and that's what we did. So we looked at the data and found some surprising things. You know, it's all about hot flashes until you really get down to business, and joint pain is equal to hot flashes, right?
Val Lego:So women don't realize that joint pain is a major symptom of perimenopause and menopause, and I really love the fact that some of the things that you focused in on are those symptoms that women don't realize are even part of it.
Ryan Anderson:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And having that lived experience, we're able to talk about that. And then, gosh I work with some incredible designers to say, all right, how are we going to solve for this? And start to look at the workplace as a whole and then look at the individual workstation. So we know, you know, movement is just, it's, imperative. So natural movement throughout the day and designers being able to create a beautiful sense of, you know, awe and wonder in the workplace, it makes you want to get up from your desk and walk around so that helps to stave off that joint pain. Having a place to sit, stand, having a task chair that supports the body we're all about that, but we see that it really applies to this specifically. And you know, just having, again, if you need to, a place to completely lie flat to alleviate, you know, the pressure that your joints are feeling.
Ryan Anderson:Some of the other symptoms we looked into physical and mental exhaustion. You mentioned nap in your intro and everyone's like amen, I mean just we're talking a 15-minute nap, tiny, you know. Ability to just reset the brain. You know, just chill out, close your eyes without people staring at you, so you're in a kind of private place, so you can get flat, close your eyes, reset your brain. You know we talked about deep into sleep deprivation and that applies to, you know, the whole workplace. So, really helping with sleep deprivation, what do you do? You expose people to natural light, natural views to the outdoors. If you don't have that, let's talk about circadian lighting systems, things to really help foster that deep sleep, that deep healing sleep, so people can show up the next day their best selves. And then the infamous brain fog solving for that. I really hope we solve for that quickly.
Val Lego:I think a lot of women do, including myself.
Ryan Anderson:Yeah, we're like you know, what can we do? And just kind of kicking the wheels on this and saying, hey, we like tackable surfaces, we like rideable surfaces, things that can help visually prompt us. Those are going to be helpful and those are going to help our clients. And then, of course, hot flashes, yes, or as they call them, hot flushes in the UK, which that always tickles me. But you know, yes, that's a thing. And so having you know, having individual thermal control and having the ability to get up and move to another spot without being questioned to say yeah, there's a little more breeze over here, this is a colder area of the building, or just, you know, personal fans, that's great. But really taking into consideration all of these things and connecting you know the symptoms to the design, to say this is what we are solving for and making it make sense.
Rebecca Horton:Yeah, rebecca's right, the timing of this is very opportune because there's already big shifts happening in, specifically, the design of office spaces.
Rebecca Horton:You know, offices had their roots as places where you supervised work and it was all about expressing status, and today there's much more of an emphasis on creating a variety of different environments inside the space, having people have more choice over where they might do certain types of activities and providing a larger sense of control that the workplace is a tool for me to be able to be productive and effective or a tool for us, and so these sort of spaces whether it's a respite space or it could be a project space with all those tactile elements that Rebecca was talking about, or a workstation with really good ergonomic furnishings that encourages movement.
Rebecca Horton:There's already kind of momentum here, and so what we can do is then begin to inform at a greater level how these choices might basically help a broader group of people. One of the most interesting and kind of niche topics in the past that's gotten mainstream is something known as biophilic design, which is basically bringing the outdoors in. It's a lot of greenery, it's natural light, it's better air quality, and so these elements too, in dealing with anxiety, brain fog, et cetera, can provide a lot of help, but it's up to us to make sure that we link these sort of design trends with real value that people and organizations can get from.
Val Lego:And I love that. I mean that is really a detail of work life that can make change, that anybody has an office. I mean, why was it always like I got an office with a window? I mean, people have been talking about that for decades. Right, there's a reason why because you feel like you get some natural light and you, of course, status also.
Val Lego:But peeling back that layer and just being able to bring in that natural light, having the sit, stand desks for when your joints are hurt because you're, you're, maybe you're sitting too long and now your hips hurt and you stand too long and now your feet hurt, you mean you're up and down, up and down all day long. But all of this attention to detail for how you can make these workspaces flow better for women is amazing to me. The thought process, I think, is what I really appreciate, is that this wasn't just like, okay, surface level thinking. There was a lot of thought and research that went into specifically what can we do and what needs to be done, and you drew also from women who have experienced it. Right, it wasn't just men sitting in a room, it was women in the room that said, 10 years ago, I would have loved to have had X Y or Z.
Rebecca Horton:Women have been very underrepresented in office design and many other types of place design for a really long time. But offices in particular, like if you look at the historical roots, it was all about older men basically expressing status and authority, and it worked its way into lots of little details, and so over the years, we've been much more mindful about making sure that color, material, finish choices, ergonomics at a seated posture or other posture are more inclusive, more participatory in terms of helping different groups have a better work experience. For us, having employee resource groups, or we call them business resource groups, have been such an asset, so our own women's business resource group has played a critical role in helping us to understand the topic of menopause and not only to be better at serving our customers but be better at living it ourselves, and so we're kind of on this journey too.
Val Lego:So I think the big question that people are wondering as they're listening to this podcast is when can I see it? When am I going to get that nap room? When am I going to have that conference room that's cold on this side of the table and warm on the other side of the table? Like, how soon can I see this in my workspace?
Rebecca Horton:Oh, that's a good question. There are already some really good examples, although I don't know that we always call them out the conference room with different temperatures. That one might be the bigger challenge. No, I mean, I'm trying to think of, like some of the very specific things we've highlighted on Miller-Knowles' website. There are definitely case studies of organizations that have invested in spaces for renewal and restoration. Sometimes it's a nap room, sometimes it's something much more chill, it's just like a corner of the facility where, it's understood, you can go to do some deep, concentrated thinking or experience some respite. But I do think it's up to us in the coming months and years to give much more specific examples. We can do so on a one-on-one basis, and Rebecca and our other team members are already doing that, but I do think we need to get out there and tell the story a little more broadly.
Val Lego:Yeah, I would have to agree with that. So, as far as the journey goes, as we wrap this up, what does success look like for Miller Noll, as you're going down your own menopause journey?
Rebecca Horton:Yeah well, our mission is designed for the good of humankind, which is a pretty lofty mission.
Rebecca Horton:When it comes to the design of spaces, but in particular, workspaces, I think a lot of organizations are beginning to see their investment in physical space as just that an investment, but it's really an investment in their people, because that's why you need this space.
Rebecca Horton:And so I think, as organizations understand that these spaces affect our well-being, they affect our relationships with each other, they affect our sense of self-esteem and accomplishment that we're providing really practical input so that this next generation of office space, particularly post-pandemic office space, feels like spaces that are much more empowering, much more understanding for women experiencing perimenopause menopause, but also for a much broader group of folks, so that it doesn't feel like these environments were just created based on the whims of a senior leader who wanted a space that looked cool, but rather they're really high performance spaces that help people to go out and accomplish good things.
Rebecca Horton:For us, it means we need to live this, and that's always like it's always a challenge to walk your talk, and so I'm really thankful that within Miller Knoll, we've got people that are thinking about our own spaces and thinking about our policies. But what gets us really enthused every day and I get to witness it with Rebecca and our interior designers and our researchers and others working with clients is going and, on a one-on-one basis, actually seeing new spaces created that are just a lot better than offices of the past.
Val Lego:Yeah, for sure. Any final thoughts, Rebecca?
Ryan Anderson:All of that is yes, I mean chef's kiss Amazing. It's, you know it is women creating things for women. It is just, you know, human beings just fostering, you know, basic human dignity for everyone. And you know Ryan touched on it it's, you know, that Venn diagram of inclusivity for that vet who has, you know, ptsd, people who are neurodivergent, individuals working their way through all the things of menopause. You know, finding respite, finding space, things that foster their health and just helping them show up as their best selves at work each day. That's what we're doing.
Val Lego:And I love it. I love hearing about it. I can't wait to see it actually in action, as I know a lot of women who are listening are feeling the same way. Can it be tomorrow? But the work you're doing is incredible and thank you both so much for your time to share what is happening out there and what the future looks like. Thank you.
Rebecca Horton:Thanks for having us.
Val Lego:If you've got ideas for how you think businesses can make the workplace a better experience for women in perimenopause and menopause, just drop them in the comments of our Facebook group, the Pause Diaries, and I promise I will share it with Ryan and Rebecca. If you haven't joined the group, you should. It's a private group with literally hundreds of women who love to support each other and offer advice. They are highly engaged, they have opinions and they want to make sure that you are on your best journey. So I just couldn't love these women more. They're amazing. Remember, menopause is not the end of anything. It is the beginning of the rest of your life and we're going to talk about it.
